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Peter Yates's avatar

Hi Larry, and thanks for the mention! Good to know someone out there reads my stuff!

The world is decidedly not flat, vaccines are in principle beneficial in most cases, and yes science gives us amazing insights into our cosmos.

I think you come close to misrepresenting me as anti-science, which is not the case, though you could be excused given the full title of ‘The Re-enchantment’ was “A Defence of Magic and a Re-enchantment of the World”. Sets off alarm bells perhaps. I certainly lost a few subscribers on that one. But picked up others…so, swings and roundabouts.

My position on science is complex. As a system of thought and investigation it is powerful and has done a lot for humanity. Science has given us the tools to manipulate our world in extraordinary ways, and to harness the ‘resources’ of our planet to…to…to our own ends. Whether the upshot of that is ‘good’ or not might be better judged by history. But for now, its not looking good. One simple fact: no wealthy, industrialised culture is happier than any vaguely intact indigenous culture. So power and wealth and stuff really don’t count for much in the end.

I do have ‘issues’ with science. Where to start? For a thought system supposedly dedicated to discovering reality or truth, it too often operates in service to one accepted orthodoxy. Your example of the connected forest is apposite: forest ecologist Suzanne Simard was hounded and vilified for her theory of the ‘wood-wide-web’. But my real issue is rather deeper: it is, as you will know from ‘Re-Enchantment’, that materialism is a priori the only acceptable basis for understanding the cosmos. Everything else is ‘woo’. This position is not just a matter of mean reviews. It decides careers. It constrains and channels thought. And it precludes serious investigation of many, many ideas, relegating them to the New Age etc. Science is supposed to hold its prizes lightly, because they will almost certainly be taken away in time.

The Gordian knot of science, technology and Empire is indeed the problem….and as you say, it is a problem too big for this space. Science is an institution of society, and as such is subject to many of the failings of society, so a good many failings of science are really just the failings of humans (protecting ego, career or orthodoxy). And yet, it has to be said that science in Australia (and I’ll bet you its ten times worse in the US), is utterly in thrall to the demands of Empire. Science has to lead to economic outcomes. Science has to lead to exciting new technologies which then lead to economic outcomes. That’s how we measure it’s worth. Amongst the threads in that Gordian knot you will find the story of progress, and the story of unbounded economic growth. Ideas powerful enough to destroy a planet.

Knowledge is not wisdom. Knowledge is not even knowledge if it is built on false foundations. And if that ‘false knowledge’ is ploughed back in to the field of human endeavour - perhaps to solve a problem we prepared earlier – then we are almost certainly laying the groundwork for the next problem, and the next.

At this point in time, we need wisdom, and a part of that is to feel wonder. Actually, a part of that is just to feel, something we industrialised post-moderns have gotten very poor at. Why feeling? Because only feeling can lead us to the heart-level realisation that something other than our miserable selves matters! Science may yet help us save the world in small ways, but only feeling will make the future worth living in.

Pete

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Mark Hannam's avatar

As a scientist myself, I maybe take an upside-down view on these things. I'm not surprised by people who say that science diminishes their sense of wonder: if your wonder sits on top of a vast tapestry of beliefs and assumptions -- a rich picture of the world -- then of course it is damaged when someone tells you that your picture is incorrect. In the same way, if I was hiking in the Grand Canyon and experiencing sublime feelings that sat amongst my scientific worldview, I expect my experience would be ruined if hiking behind me was a spiritualist blabbering about the wonder of God.

On the other hand, in some ways I'm more confused by scientists trying to argue that they really do experience nature just as profoundly as "normal" people. (There's a famous example from Feynman, which you've probably read.) I understand the urge -- it's a bit frustrating to be treated as an unfeeling alien -- but how do you quantify the strength of your feelings compared to someone else? Some people are routinely moved by nature and some people couldn't give a damn. Whether they're scientists or not has nothing to do with it.

One last thing. I want to put my hand up as a defender of scientific Truth. This is not a religion or a belief or a faith. The people who call science a religion do not understand the scientific worldview. You can call it an emotional disposition. I hope that there is an objective reality, and if there is one, I think it's worthwhile to try to uncover as many details as possible about what it is. Maybe that's not correct, but so far this view has taken us a very long way, and there is no compelling evidence to the contrary. A lot of people find this view embarrassing these days. What kind of alternative are they thinking of? How could you take pleasure in the thought that the universe is otherwise? Ugh.

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